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CRT...can someone enlighten me?

2K views 26 replies 11 participants last post by  Deequeue 
#1 ·
Ok, so I have done some reading, but I am not entirely certain what the "CRT" designation means. Care to help a guy understand......:smoking:
 
#3 ·
CRTs are very bad designed bikes, it seens:

- 5s slower than the prototypes, average
- about the same lap times as GP2 bikes which are 600cc machines
- worse lap time on the average than SBK bikes

Cannot understand how a RSV 4 Factory can became such a bad ART bike!
 
#5 ·
-edit - hehehe CAG :)

As Bev said - its stands for Claiming Rule Teams - Essentially what it means is that if a CRT team end up doing really well, an MSMA member (Honda, Yam, Ducati) can claim an engine from the team at a cost of 20k euro's.

Its essentially there to stop Kawasaki, Aprillia etc from getting a prototype engine in through the back door, using the CRT rules, as the CRT's are allowed to use double the number of engines over the season, and more fuel.

Luiz -you need to check the laptimes out from the circuits both championships go to, the top end CRT's (Aprillia's, admittedly) are running the same times as the WSBK machinery - at some circuits they're slightly faster - Brno, as an example. Considering the fact that they have maybe half the number of engines that they use in WSBK, with no refreshing of parts allowed, I don't think they are doing too badly. Not to mention that this is their first season of racing.

The Suters had shocking bosch electronics last season, which is why Forward racing are using Kawasaki engines next year - Apparently the Honda that Michele Pirro was using is putting out less power than a stock Fireblade cause of reliability worries too.

Saying that, I don't really think its the way forwards for motoGP, and it looks like Yamaha will be leasing engines and Honda selling a full bike for 2014, so it could mean we don't see many of them going forwards.
 
#6 ·
So, the CRT teams compete directly with the MotoGP teams? WSBK teams?
 
#7 ·
Yeah, they're the same class as motogp, race at the same time - The fastest CRT bikes are currently around 2 - 3 seconds a lap slower than factory prototype stuff, which puts them in the same area as the satellite prototype bikes.


Essentially, in layman's terms, prototypes aren't allowed to share any engine / frame components with production bikes.

CRT's are modified production based engines in a prototype chassis - The Aprillia ART team runs what is pretty much a modified RSV4 engine, in a chassis designed in house.... im not sure how much it differs to an RSV4 frame though.

The CRT's run the same tires as the prototypes though, which apparently is half the problem as they don't work the tires like the full on prototypes, so they don't generate as much heat in the tires.


Its more complex than that, but that's how things are without going deeper into the rules.


Randy De-puniet and Aleix Espagaro were on the Aprillia ART bikes this year, Colin Edwards rides for forward racing, there were about 5 or 6 teams running CRT bikes, and there will be a couple more next year.
 
#8 ·
This is all very interesting! Is there any way to tell, besides doing research and learning, who is on a CRT team? NASCAR has a rookie yellow stripe on the bumper...is there any identifier like that?
 
#10 ·
Is there any way to tell, besides doing research and learning, who is on a CRT team?
Yep, they are the slow bikes running around at the back, occaisonally mixing with the satellite Ducati's!

But seriously, no. There's not that many of them so once you have read about them and watched them a couple of times you get to know who they are.

My opinion is that CRT hasn't been a success and I would be happy to see them dropped, but the factories would have to come to the party and supply affordable prototype bikes to the private teams.
 
#9 ·
.
I think the CRT ruling was only applied once back in the mid 60's against the works Triumph team at the end of a Daytona race..

I can't remember the facts but I'm sure it did happen..

Triumph had to pay the guy off by offering him a new bike with a load of works spares, because at the time they only had a limited number of the proper works prototype bikes and couldn't afford to loose a bike under this new ruling..

Be interesting if someone could find any info on how many times this CRT ruling has been applied to a works team..

.
 
#13 ·
MotoGP has become a poor imitation of it's own second tier series. Moto2 has bigger fields with more exciting racing. I didn't bother to go down to Phillip Island this year because of it.
 
#14 ·
For entertainment, yes you're right -the races I look forward to of a weekend are Moto3 and Moto2 now, you know you get good racing in both.

In regards to the class though, MotoGP is supposed to be the bleeding egde of m/c technology, and the technology they develop filters down to the roadbikes that we use - eventually. The whole point of it is that it is supposed to be the very pinnacle of motorcycle racing, with the best riders, which it is.

The problem comes because for someone to have chance to win they currently need either a factory Honda or Yamaha. That and the fact that there are a handful of riders that are a few percent better than the rest. None of these guys are slow - they might look slow next to Lorenzo, Stoner or Pedrosa, but they're just "less fast" - put them on a track next to 99.9% of us on this forum, and have no doubt that person would look like a fool very very quickly. I'm sure Dons would agree with that.


Its all coming down to cost - considering it costs 2.5 mil euro's to *lease* a prototype for a year, and the fact the rules specify there can only be prototype 4 bikes per manufacturer. If it hadnt been for CRT's, we'd have had 12 bikes on the grid this year. We're missing Suzuki, Kawasaki, and technically Aprillia in the prototype class, all because it costs too much to run the teams.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Dee,

Each race is different (humidity, temperature, wind etc) but looking at 2 MGP and SBK races of 2012 at the same dry Aragón track:

pilot___________bike________best lap time

Pol Espagaro____Kalex GP2___1'33''729
Marquez________Suter GP2___1'34''496

Stoner_________Honda GP____1'30''191
Espargaro_______ART GP_____1'32''305
Edwards________Suter GP____1'34''131

Biaggi__________RSV4_______1'33''021
Rea____________CBR1000RR__1'33''247
Melandri________S1000RR____1'33''379

It is clear that 1000cc CRTs are not much faster than 600cc GP2, if faster at all. For the same RSV4 and S1000RR engines, CRTs are not faster than SBKs.

Edwards would do better with any stock HP4 or RSV4 Factory...Stoner is right, about mixing two different performace level bikes at the same race. It is almost as mixing GP with GP2.
 
#22 ·
Luiz,

Firstly, they use different track layouts for WSBK and MotoGP at Motorland Aragon, so the times are not comparable.

Lets look at Brno - a track MotoGP and WSBK both visit. Track conditions for the races were similar, with air and track temperatures within a couple of degrees

Jorge LORENZO - Yamaha 1'56.274
Randy DePuniet - CRT Aprillia 1'58.781

Pol ESPARGARO - Moto 2 2'03.061

T. Sykes - WSBK 1'59.728


I'd also like to point out that the times you quoted Aleix Espagaro was quoted as 7 tenths faster than Biaggi..... he's on a CRT bike....


pilot___________bike________best lap time

Pol Espagaro____Kalex GP2___1'33''729
Marquez________Suter GP2___1'34''496

Stoner_________Honda GP____1'30''191

Espargaro_______ART GP_____1'32''305

Biaggi__________RSV4_______1'33''021
Rea____________CBR1000RR__1'33''247
Melandri________S1000RR____1'33''379
 
#16 ·
FIM explains 2012 MotoGP 'Claiming Rule'
8 May 2011

An FIM announcement during last weekend's Portuguese Grand Prix gave further details on how the new-for-2012 MotoGP 'Claiming Rule Teams' will be governed.

The Claiming Rule Teams (CRTs) are a new initiative to help boost privateer entries in the MotoGP class, and coincides with the start of the new 1000cc engine rules.

The CRTs will compete alongside teams running factory-built prototypes - which currently comprise the entire 17-rider MotoGP grid - but with concessions in terms of fuel-tank capacity and engine changes to give them a fighting chance.

In order to avoid the abuse of such concessions, in other words to stop any undercover factory efforts, CRT status must first be approved by the Grand Prix Commission.

This is how the latest FIM rules, released at Estoril, define a Claiming Rule Team:

“Four stroke motorcycles participating in the MotoGP class must be prototypes. Those that are not entered by a member of MSMA [Manufacturers' Association] must be approved for participation by the Grand Prix Commission, and teams using such motorcycles may ask the Grand Prix Commission (GPC) for the “Claiming Rule Team” (CRT) status by December 31st of the year before the season they intend to race.

“Approval of CRT status is subject to unanimity among all the members of the GPC, and CRT status is given only for one year at a time. The CRT status is approved by unanimous decision of the GPC in order to ensure fair competition, and based on the same consideration it can be withdrawn at any time by a majority decision of the GPC members. In case of CRT status withdrawal the GPC will inform the team at least one race in advance of CRT status being withdrawn.

“The CRT status affects the requirements of engine durability [CRTs can use 12 engines per season instead of 6] and fuel tank capacity [CRTs have a fuel tank limit of 24 litres instead of 21].

“CRT's are subject to the Claiming Rule and must not represent any MSMA manufacturer, as defined solely by a GPC majority decision.”

That brings us to the 'Claiming Rule' itself. This is basically an attempt to further limit costs by forcing teams to allow rivals to buy their engine(s), should they wish to do so.

The theory is that no-one will use expensive or secretive technology if a rival can literally get their hands on it. Teams wishing to avoid having their engines 'claimed' will need to race under 'normal' status.

Claiming Rules have been used in other forms of racing, although in the case of MotoGP there is a slight twist in that the 'claiming' won't be done by the teams, but the MSMA manufacturers.

The FIM rules state:

“MSMA manufacturers have the right to purchase the engine of a motorcycle entered by a CRT immediately after a race, for a fixed price of:
“20,000€ (twenty thousands Euros) including gearbox/transmission, or
“15,000€ (fifteen thousands Euros) without gearbox/transmission.

“A maximum of four engine claims can be made against one CRT in any one racing season. An MSMA manufacturer may not claim more than one engine per year from the same CRT (i.e. a different claimant for every claimed engine of the same CRT).”

Once a claim is lodged, and to ensure that the engine 'bought' is the real deal and not a toned-down version, the following procedure will take place:

“To lodge a claim under the Claiming Rule, an MSMA manufacturer must inform Race Direction in writing after the start of the race. In the case of more than one claim lodged against the same team, the claim lodged first will be recognised, and other claims dismissed.

“Provided that the relevant CRT has not already been subjected to the Claiming Rule four times that season, Race Direction will request the Technical Director to securely identify the used engine immediately after the race.

“The CRT must make that engine available at Technical Control within two hours after the identification, to be handed over to the successful claimant by the Technical Director. Race Direction will inform IRTA of the successful claim, and IRTA will ensure payment and receipt of the claiming fees between the two involved Teams.”

The ability to 'claim' engines obviously clashes with the MotoGP engine-change limits mentioned previously [12 per season for a CRT]. Therefore...

“If a CRT loses an engine due to [the Claiming Rule], an additional engine will be allowed in the affected rider's allocation,” read the FIM rules.

“The number of engines available for use by each rider using a machine entered by a CRT can be changed during the season by a majority decision of the GPC, with the aim of ensuring fair competition.

“The number of engines allowed after that point will be determined by the GPC, based on half the number of engines remaining in the CRT's allocation, numbers rounded up. (eg. 9 engines remaining /2 = 4.5, rounded up = 5 engines allowed).”

So far, the new rules look to have hit their mark, with 16 new teams - meaning teams not presently racing in MotoGP - having registered an interest in being part of the 2012 world championship.

14 of those teams - which were not named, but are assumed to be mainly from the Moto2 and 125cc classes - have been selected to go forward to the next stage of assessment.

Existing MotoGP teams do not need to apply.

MotoGP is thought to be aiming for a grid size of around 22-24 full-times riders for 2012.

The BMW-powered Suter 1000cc MotoGP bike, being developed in partnership with the Marc VDS team, is testing at Estoril on Tuesday and Wednesday.
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/168905/1/fim_explains_2012_motogp_claiming_rule.html
 
#17 ·
Thanks for that, Kevin!

So, a "factory-built prototype" must be a limited run? What defines prototype in this situation....?
 
#18 ·
That's a good question Chuck - you have a lot of great questions. And they prompt me to go out and try to learn new things! :)
 
#19 ·
Glad to be of service!

"Questions are the easy part...answers raise the doubt"...Jimmy Buffet.
 
#20 ·
Chuck, I can't find an specific definition of what makes a "prototype", but I remember hearing years ago that engines (and perhaps other components) of a MotoGP bike cannot be the same as a production piece.

I found this FIM document but again, don't see a detailed definition of "prototype".
"2.2.1 Motorcycles participating in the MotoGP class must be prototypes."
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/2012_GP_Regulations_updated_version.pdf
 
#21 ·
It is interesting because that is a very subjective description. I mean, theoretically, if the color is different...they are not the same.
 
#23 ·
Apologies for the thread derailment Silent :)

I believe - although you would have to look at the rules on this - that they are not allowed to share components like engine cases, crankshaft, valve train, etc etc. I know its explicitly defined.

Ironically, a few years ago the WCM team had a 990 that was essentially banned by Dorna for having the engine cases based loosely on an R1.
 
#24 ·
No problem Deeqeue, I am learning and I like what you all have contributed. The lap time aspect included!
 
#25 ·
GP rules and costs

Dee,

I was not aware of track layout differences at Aragon..

If you take the worst CRT, it is slower than mos GP2, at the same track layout.

Anyway, Moto GP costs soared maily, in my view due to the frequent rule changing by Dorna, after 2-stroke 500cc era: 4 stroke 990cc, then 800cc, back to 1000cc etc. Development costs that could not being invested in products that would give a return, unlike SBK.
 
#26 ·
I think I read through all this and have followed CRT this past season. The only additional point is that the CRT bikes do run at the same time, grid, etc as MotoGP, but they have their own championship. Aleix Esparago was the "2012 CRT Champion" this year, narrowly beating Randy De Puniet.

It took me a couple of races to realize that when the top three bikes pulled up to the winner's circle, there was always that one extra spot for the first place CRT bike.
 
#27 ·
Silent - Ahh excellent - its nice to see this random information in my head can be put to good use sometimes :) I'm not an expert in these things by any stretch of the imagination, but I spend all too much time watching the practice and qualifying sessions on British Eurosport - the commentators tend to get a little more technical on these days, and tone it down for race day :)

No worries Luiz - I completely agree that the slowest ones are running times slower than the fastest moto2 bikes, but they are small teams that generally haven't been running for that long - it really does belittle some of the effort put in by these teams that are working very hard on shoestring budgets.....

As SPDKLZ says, they have their own "championship within a championship", although its a little bit of a farce to be honest and some things that Dorna are doing to promote CRT's are somewhat silly. I think they are doing well within their own right, and whilst i understand they are trying to make it a show, it comes off as a little patronising towards the CRT teams and riders from my point of view.

Aleix was close to the last prototype this year, and I think that they might take a scalp next year - it'll be interesting to see.
 
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